"THEY ARE JUST CRUL INTSIN TERRORISM EVIL THAT THEY ATTACK
NEW YORK ON SEPTEMBER 9/11/01 .AND I FELL SAD A ABOUT IT .
AND GOD BLESS AMERICA PEACE ."


- Heather j Avitable  TAPDANCEH@VERIZON.NET , MORRIS COUNRTY NJ    9/11/04

"<a href=> link</a>"


- link-  link-449@hotmail.com    8/20/04

" I just think that what happened on September 11,2001 is just not fair to all the people. So many people that didn't do anything had to die. When that happened I was in school in 6th grade. Noone told my class anything . I found out everything when my aunt picked me up from school. I was very scred because my parents were at work. my mom works in New Jesrsey , so for her to get here at that day was like about the whole day. Everything was closed."


- Marlena  XxMaRleNkAxPL@aol.com , Brooklyn, NY USA   6/13/04

"I FEEL THAT NO MAN CAN SAY THAT THEY BELIVE IN GOD AND DO WHAT THE TERRORIST DID ON 9/11 I FEEL THEY MUST WORSHIP THE DEVIL NOT GOD I FEEL FOR ALL THE FAMILY'S WHO LOST LOVE ONES ON 9/11 BECAUSE IT HERTS ME AND I DON'T KNOW NONE OF THEM. MAY GOD BLESS THIS GREAT COUNTRY."


- RON DAVIS  roncompressor@yahoo.com , concord , ca , 94524   4/14/04

"You are right Jennifer, war or violence should never be the answer.... Now, try to convey that to the terrorists. "


- Alfredo Lopez  alfredo_pr103@hotmail.com , Melbourne, Fl USA   1/17/04

"War is never the answer. These muslims terrorists just dont understand that! This community seems to spread their religion using violence, i completely disagree with this so called technique of theirs. I mean why don't they just live in peace and let others live in peace also!! "


- jennifer  jennifer_@hotmail.com , ontario   12/22/03

"war is not always the answer."


- jennier  js2403@yahoo.com , westerville, ohio   11/20/03

"I was Sooooooooooooo happy. "


- Arslan  arslanfiaz@hotmail.com , Mississauga, Ontario, Canada   3/9/03

"i think that america should stand up for its rights and its people, sadly, war is the only answer, saddam must be toppled before its too late."


- natalie  slappa_01@hotmail.com , england, london   2/22/03

"Thank you, Fadra

The finals are over. I didn't do as well as I should have but to be honest I couldn't care less. It's over, three weeks of cold fact that don't have much to do with normal life are over! I'm so happy about that.
thank you very much for wishing me good luck. I needed it.
I wrote rain and he's already answered. He told me to give you "his best".
I'll have to think something to write about cause right now my head is full of genetics and evolution and stuff. I don't know what's going on in the world.
Rain gave me your e-mail adress. I'll write you as soon as I can think of anything but biology.
thank you. "


- molly  lalala , G   4/15/02

"Hello Molly,
Best of luck on your tests, I am sure when they are all over and you can breathe a sigh of relief, you will see how easy they were in the end. You are an intelligent woman, and your studies are more than I could even comprehend...so you keep your chin up, and you will do wonderful.
I understand your feelings with Rainman. He and I disagreed on so many things, yet I still felt a connection. He taught me so many thing, and opened my eyes to so much, that I will be always greatful for that time. This country has been through so many time, that we are unfamiliar with. Now we have tasted the fear of our shadows. And that is not always a bad thing. Our past, that was discussed on the other side of the fence, were ghings that I have never had to deal with before, and hearing the anger, that came from so many people, has had a new world open up to me. Combining the now, and the past..I find my education, my sensitivity, my awareness open to a point where I can be more objective to problems that come into our news. I am not afraid to stand up anymore, nor ask all those questions that I didn't know to ask. I am greatful for Rainman and you, for bringing it to light.
Thank you for the movie..I think I will go see if I can find it because Schindlers list is one of my favorites. When you see heros like that, and the extra miles people walk for others...it makes me want to walk those miles too. Sept 11th made heros too.... and I will walk with them as well. So did without sanctuary. I many many ways.
I am adding a web site that was done as a tribute to the victims of Sept. 11th. A wonderful site. In the wake of the tragedy, we have to remember...and we have to keep fighting to stop this kind of action, wether it be here in the states or in Germany, or in the middle east. Our methods may be questioned, but the results can still be achieved.
Hugs always to you molly..One more word on Rainman. He really respects you. Don't be afraid of him. He loved your wrds. "

Links:
    Tribute

- Fadra  Fadra    4/2/02

"Dear Fadra
I wanted to write much earlier but I'm half a week away from my finals. Next week I'll have to write German, Maths and French and later Biology. I feel like the mistakes I'm making in maths get wrose and more stupid the closer the test is. Today Im gonna begin to prepare French. If you find the movie "Au revoir, les enfants" / "good bye, children" by Louis Malle, you have to see it. It's so beautiful. (Schindler's list - kind of beautiful)
I haven't written Rain yet. Probably because I don't know what to say. His world and mine are so far away from another. They touched in a place that doesn't exist anywhere but in us, you and rain and me. I don't know why but I'm sure that I know what it feels like to see him smile. I'm also sure that I can feel the pacience in your eyes when you're reading. I know it sounds weird, please don't laugh... I just don't know what to say to him.
I wanted to thank you for that snoop-site. I couldn't load the film that showed the plane crash into the Pentagon but I did see the pictures of the wreckage and the explanation sounds locigal to me. Thank you."


- molly  lalala , G   4/2/02

"Hello Molly.
I just went to the site of the plane, and I must admit, I have questioned the photos from day one. The government has a duty to protect it's citizens in ways that they deem right for security. Somehow, I think ours gets a little out of hand. Fortunately, in the US, we are not demanded to believe all we are told, but there is a fear of voicing those disbeliefs. We stand under the flag, with blinders on occasionally. Our war on terrorism, is one that is fought with many reasons, and it's not only for terrorism. That is a byproduct and sometimes an excuse, but I can't ignore the fact that the US is hated, and all it's citizens, whether they are innocent or not. We all have blood on our hands......Iraq can be a terrible mistake if it is taken into the war. Somehow, I think the war on terrirism is an excuse to do what could have been done in the Gulf war. But why now??? Because public support, and the death of 5000 innocent people are pushing it forward...
I am so glad to still see you. No I have not seen rainman. Try his e-mail from some of his posts in without sanctuary. He did leave it occasionally, and I am sure he would love to hear from you. He can give you mine, if you ask too......You are a wonderful lady Molly. Keep warning..someday we will all listen well. "


- Fadra  Fadra    3/26/02

"I wonder where the rainbird is. I miss him so much and I hope he's OK. Have you heard anything from him?
There are other worlds to sing..."


- molly  lalala , G   3/24/02

"You're right. There is no nation that has not comitted crimes in its past. That's past, we can't change it and make it right but we have the duty to face it to learn from it and not to let others make the same mistakes again.
This is one reason for which so many are criticizing the US right now. Your nation isn't doing anything that mine has not done before. but that doesn't mean that everything it's is good and to be supported.
Yes, "he who is without sin can cast the first stone." Nobody is throwing stone at the US. I don't judge your government for making these mistakes because mine made them first but I have to criticize them for not having learned from my nation's mistakes. I mustn't remain silent because I have the duty to be careful. If I had not learned this from history, I would have missed the most elementry lesson that it teaches us. Right, there won't be peace because mankind is evil. But sill we have to love the world we live in, we need to love it because if we didn't, there wouldn't be no reason to fight for it and to cry for it. Its beauty is what makes this world worth fighting for. I don't mean fighting a war, cause that can only lead to war because no victory can every bring peace. Only if the nations can respect that everyone has his own way of life and philosophy, only if they respect another and consider another equal, there can one day develop peace. If you try to defeat and to control and nation and to force it to change its way of life in which the people live their philosophy, you prove disrespect and this can never lead to peace.
I don't think it to be a good idea to attack the Iraq. And it's an even worse idea to justify this with "the war against terror". This war is one that Bush Jr. father was fighting. And he fought it for oil and control, not for human rights and peace. The war is still the same and I doubt that its goals have changed that rapidly. I'm not sure whether Hussein was involved in the september eleventh attack. He certainly was involved in other terrorist acts, he already was when he was still a "fighting dog" of the west, at that time he committed such crimes in our name.
I envy you for the trust that have into your country's government, even if it was not legally elected.
Have you been to the web site that was mentiones in ehte "role of Islam" forum? these photos prove without a doubt, that it was not a boing that hit the pentagon. It proves that the official statement is a lie. The state has the right to lie to the public and it has fought for this right in lawsuits. The war agains the Iraq wouldn't the first war that is not fought for the official goals in the name of people which believe in the noble goals of their government. It's just hard for me to believe Bush because so many things he's doing are contradictory to the ideals that he preaches and pretends to fight for.
You said that the Iraq was the "next target in the fight against terrorism". When will it end and where will it end? My nation once fought a war against "the axis of evil", too. And the people loved their government for this war and believed that this war was fought to protect them from the evil forces that were threatening them. This war was a lie and a crime against humanity. I have to be careful, it's my nations duty to be careful more that anybody else's. That's why I'm happy that my government is not gonna support the war agains the Iraq, I really hope they won't give in.
I'm not trowing stones. It's my duty to warn, cause that's all I can do.
A human heart is like a flower that grows on a grave. It's beautiful and sign of life. It didn't grow because the solier on whose grave it's growing died. It grew even though he died. Because love lives and life still gives us a chance. The flower on the soldier's grave is a beautiful as the flower on the grave of the soldier that he fought against. We just have to see the beauty of the flower which is in all of us and accept its beauty as what unites us and makes us all one. But we can't cause we're humans.
Fadra, you're one of the most beautiful flowers that I've ever seen."


- molly  lalala , G   3/24/02

"Hello Molly, it's always good to see you. I really get irritated when the U.S. is always being trashed for being a "super-power" and being the bad guy. There are many nations that have done things, and it get pointed to us, consistantly, when no one has a right to do that. Not one nation has a clear history, that can give them rights to point fingers at another nation. We are all at fault for someing in our backgrounds..."he who is without sin..." There will never be peace. There will always be people who want to feed their egos with power, and take things that someone else has. Until the last two people are left on earth...there will be fighting. But it's not the entire world, it's a handful in a huge population. And thank goodness for people like you, who still wish for peace. That makes it a little easier to still dream...
Attacking Iraq? It's inevitable. The public wants to see Saddam out, one way or another, and I to this day don't understand why. He has been connected with terrorism, for years, against many, but has succeeded little. I don't understand the fixation again on him or Iraq, but it will come. We can't sit back and wait for another Sept. 11th...the best defense is to stop it before it happens, and so far those efforts have been successful. Iraq will most likely be the next target in the fight agains terrorism..and I am sure many of the reasons will not be public, until it happens.
Bless you Molly.
Hugs."


- Fadra  Fadra    3/19/02

"Dear Fradra
You're right the world is bad. It's us who make it whatever it is and it's human nature that makes us behave the way we do. We could make it a peaceful place and we could stop destroying it or at least try to protect it. Some try some try less than others. And if we make it a peaceful world it mustn't be a peace that was dictated by one nation cause that's not peace, it's humiliating and causes more wars. peace that a defeated nation is forced into is not peace and never will be no matter how great and just the presumptuous victor thinks himself to be. The world is bad and that the fault of the nations that live on it. And that's us and everybody else. The world is bad but that's not an excuse for makeing it even worse or for ignoring its problems. Every nation is guilty in its way and any nation has to accept its responsibility for what it does. Sure, it's not the whole nation's fault if its leaders make mistakes but the people have to take over responsibility for what they let happen, for millions of innocents that they let be killed, for natural ressources that they let be exploited witout thinking about future generations, for wars that were begun in their name and for crimes against humanity that the let be committed by their leaders. This is the rule, for everyone, every nation. Yours, mine and any other.
The world is bad and so are men - that's true but no excuse for nothing.
I like my country too and that makes it hard to face the bad that its leaders did and that my nation let happen.
Who ever said taking over responsibility for injustice was easy? It's not, but it gets easier the more often one faces it. Look worldwide but don't forget what's happening in your name.
Btw, what do you think about attacking Iraq?"


- molly  lalala , G   3/19/02

"Ah. beat down the Americans huh? Yes, we can be bullies, we can threaten with power, and we can abuse the system on occasion, be cause we are powerful. However, if you want to talk about horrors, think about the serbs, the jews, the tribes in africa, the afgan women, the orphanages of Romania, the rise of slavery in egypt, the recent religious wars in India, the kilmer rouge, the inquisitions of europe, the Irish fighting among themselves...we may have power, but I don't think we are alone in the killings. We may threaten, but you won't see a mass destruction of our own citizens in the name of religion or occupation. On the other side of the fence, they talk about slavery, which started not in America, but in Africa then onto europe until it reached the states. We were not first, and we abolished it..but it still goes on. So, when you think about the evil United States, I guess you have to think about the evil world. No of us have a right to say we are pure. But in all..I kinda like my country. The mockery I hear many times is..."Now you know how we feel." Is that self gratification? Sorry Joe...look worldwide. It's all around you and I. "


- Fadra  Fadra    3/13/02

"Thanks Joe. I don't know why you think that I was not aware of all this. But it was nice of you to remind me though.
I just compared Milosovic's idea to "reactivate" a nation's "pride" with stories like the Kosovomyth. He's not the first, not the last and right now not even the only one who uses nationalism and conflicts to drown internal problems in. But the fact that so many who consider themselves civilized and educated still fall for that old trick is kind of depressing.
There's one word that I don't understand, what is UD? You probably meant that munition which contains an isotope of uranium. If it wasn't that sad one laugh about the apathy that keep so many people from asking themselves why everyone who kept talking about the dangerous side effects and the fact that the area where the munition was used has to be "cleaned" (costs a lot) got fired. Some still believe that this isotop is not dangerous because it also can found in nature and our body is used to it. Of cours there's a lot that I don't know and I certainly would have believed Milo too if I had been in the same situation as so many serbs and I'm also sure that I would have followed Hitler too. It's just so easy not to question authority and I was just lucky to get born a little later. At "the other side of the fence" (the without sanctuary chat or forum) the phrase "those who don't know history are doomed to repeat it." As if we could or even tried to keep history from repeating itself. "


- molly  lalala , G   3/12/02

"But was it Milosevic who used nuclear waste against others? His soldiers did not use DU rounds even though their tanks were equiped to do so. but Nato and the US DID! Was it Saddam who used weapons of mass destruction most of the world has banned in desert storm even though he is blamed for using some on his own people. And who else with such super weapons and advanced techonology goes around bullying, stealing, forceing, threatning, cohercing and worse of all TRICKING people all the name of Lifestyle and National intrest. You dont think Saddam was tricked to attack Kuwait? Threatning China they were going to be nuked. Ignoring internation rules of war or justice. Even getting kicked out of the international human rights commision. So dont flatter yourself too much.. The millions of dead and wonded and the millions still living in the ruins of the more than 23 countries bombed dont. And especially the million babies deformed, dead and dying in Iraq that is a direct result of the US.

"


- joe  none@none.com    3/11/02

"In some nations the people only can see power as an indicator of strength and forget that destruction which is used the most in most cases to gain power is an indicator of weakness and ignorance.
Have you seen the movie "black hawk down". I haven't but the trailer made me feel sick. I can understand what hero is and what you wrote about heros made me think of many people that I know who make the world a better place with their lives. We don't have any since we got a little too much of this heroic nationalism stuff. And I can't understand how all that we got over can still be kept alive in such movies. The fact that some of those who see them movies believe in this "heros are the good and the good are we"-myth is even worse than that their are produced. Especially right now. I was so happy when I read the "devided we stand" comment in "General comments". 'Cause it proves that the prejudice that most americans identify with them war glorifying movies is wrong.
In our sociology class we're talking about Milosevic and the way he used the Kosovo-myth to stire up nationalism. It's the same bullshit that Hitler and so many others used. The need to be proud of what we identify with is probably the root of nationalism. I just makes me sick to see this plant grow wherever I look.
Stoiber is probably gonna become our next chancellor. He's bavarian. Bavarians are those who really run around in leather shorts drinking beer all the time. Bavaria doesn't seem to be part of Germany, it just accidently lies within our borders. After the first world war they wanted to become an independent state and its citizens still have a dual citizenship. They are Germans and bavarians. I don't like the idea that he could one day represent my country.
Uuups, sorry...
My brother told me he had seen a dialog or something between Bush and Anan. I think they were talking about the Iraq. Anan asked Bush not to attack it for several reasons and Bush said it was important to the war against terrorism. Anan said something about the Nobel peace prize and Bush looked offended (that childish face that he sometimes makes when he talks about things that he wants and might not get). That's at least what my brother told me but he couldn't understand everything. Have you heard about something like that?
Do you believe in faith?"


- molly  lalala , G   3/3/02

"My my..what is a hero? To me, it is someone who will stand up, and defend the rights of othere. It is someone who is willing to risk failure, or their live and liberty to protect someone or something that is important to them. It is a hand reaching out to assit someone who is beaten down by insensitivity. It's giving up your seat to discriminated people, in a crowd of discriminators. It's someone giving up their life, to save someone else. A hero is a person surviving against all odds. It's a mother raising her family when she is left alone. It's not giving up or giving in to the wrong "band wagon". It's standing in a courtroom defending the poor. It's giving a home to a homeless. It's running an underground railroad to protect the abused. It's giving up your coat to someone needy..there are so many types of heros in this world. We have seen them in action during terrorism more and more. And in everyday life.
Courage is yes...leting the suffering world touch you, or touching them...Facing change positively, and risking lonliness by denouncing wrong. Courage is displayed by all the heros that have the guts to stand up, stand out and help wherever needed, and whatever is needed.
A nation can exist within a nation. Where ever a group of people reside with a common bond, and a common mind, they can form a nation. It doesn't have to be a government, or a country. Just people who believe, and govern alike. We, sometimes, as a nation, should be too weak to know our weaknesses. I believe in strength becoming most important in looking at. With strength comes the power to do...with weakness comes the power to destroy. And most times, being weak, and dwelling on the weakness, is a destruction in itself, to ourselves. "


- Fadra  Fadra    2/28/02

"No matter where rain is, I hope he'll be careful in his fight against "evil" (whatever that may be).
Bravery. I didn't know that word and looked it up. My dictionnary told me it meant courage and valor. And valor again was retranslated as heroism.
What is a hero? What does heroism mean to you?
Fear is not always a bad thing. Those who don't know what fear is and don't take it seriously are stupid because fear protects us. It tells us when to be careful, when to defend ourselves and when to run away. It's a good thing to stay here and to oppose these idiots but is would be stupid to give them our names and addresses.
Courage can be to let the suffring of the world touch you, to face the misery that "infotainment.inc" packed up in harmless statistics and nice colorful pictures. Courage also can be to leave all your emotions behind to face the misery of mankind rationally risking to become blunt and to lose the ability to feel compassion with those who suffer. Courage can be to remain silent if you're forced to speak and it can be to speak up against injustice. Sometimes the line between courage and ignorance is very thin. Facing fear certainly also is courage. No matter who does it. Courage is realative. (-:
A nation, that's not only the brave and the good. It's people living together sharing some collective interests and defining themselves over the group that they are part of. There's no nation of heros and noble men. There's good and bad in every nation just like there's good and bad in every man, cause it's built by humans. Facing the own fallibility is probably just as difficult as facing one's vulnerability and mortality. We're too weak always to be aware of our weakness, so we repress it. As we repress the misery of mankind, poverty, injustice and most of our fears.
What is courage for you. And how would you define a nation?"


- molly  lalala , G   2/28/02

"Yes. I agree with you Molly. Not remaining silent is a good thing, but it's difficult to compete with devious minds like theirs. This is a forum on America Attacked. It is not only America attacked, it is a whole world suffering in so many ways. We have troops all over the world right now, fighting side by side with troops from many good nations. We cant give up on the hope that someday, it won't come to all of this. American has been put on a state of alert that others have lived under for countless ages. We are only beginning to understand, and yet we still remain aloof enough to think that we can't be destroyed.
Right here, among our own people, are our own people who want to destroy us with the words we have seen posted by ingnorance. That is not what makes a nation...it's the bravery, and the voices that in the face of fear...still reamin. They can't beat us.
So good to see you. Now...where is Rainman?"


- Fadra  Fadra    2/26/02

"It feels so good to see you again, Fadra.
No matter how often they come back, they're not gonna prevail. We can't keep the bad from coming but they can't keep us from staying neither. Their appearance reminds us on all the bad out there that we can not see and that we can't do anything against. But that we can't change anything doesn't mean that we should give up. Staying and not remaining silent can make a difference.
peace to all of good will"


- molly  lalala , G   2/26/02

"Hello Molly...all is well. Disappointed in the chat area hre, and I am afraid to post too much for fear that the bad things will return. In the chat area of Without Sanctuary, it was rough, but when they started slamming this board too, it was too much of a new wound to tolerate. I can't understand the cruelty and insensitivity of some...I miss you all......"


- Fadra  Fadra    2/25/02

"Fadra, Rain, I miss you and I hope you're OK."


- molly  lalala , G   2/23/02

"It's thinking individuals like John Tomlinson who were missing in my nation's past. The fact that he could post this comment without the fear of being juged for it, proves that it is not too late and that there still is something like freedom of speech.
I wanted to thank for this comment but my comment was not accepted. I wonder why."


- molly  lalala , G   2/20/02

""Divided We Stand

There was always an American flag flying in front of my wife's parents' home in Tennessee when we arrived for a visit. My mother-in-law, Virginia Parsons, put the flag out each morning; she had replaced the flag several times over the years when its colors faded. At her death two years ago, just shy of age one hundred one, we brought her last flag home with us and began to fly the flag several times a week.

Virginia Parsons was glad to be an American, glad to have been born in this nation of abundant land and resources, a land bathed by the beneficent Gulf Stream. She felt blessed to be an American, as am I, but she was not proud to be an American for she was not a prideful person.

Last week I watched a pickup truck speed by our house, a small American flag flying from the antenna, the frayed edge whipping in the wind. As it passed I saw a sticker on one side of the tailgate proclaiming Proud to Be an American, and on the other side United We Stand. Seeing this reminded me again that I have not flown Virginia Parsons' flag for several weeks. When I first realized that I had stopped putting the flag in front of our house I knew that it was because I had become a bit uncomfortable doing so. I had come to feel that for many people our flag now represents nationalism more than patriotism.

I am proud of many of the things our nation has done: the Marshall Plan and the Peace Corps are outstanding examples. But I am not proud to be an American because in pride there is arrogance. We cannot be completely proud of ourselves as a nation when we continue to consume so much of the world's resources while two-thirds of the world's peoples live in poverty, their productivity sapped by diseases that no longer plague our land.

There have been many times in our nation's past when the motto United We Stand was appropriate, but today is not one of those times. Today it is more appropriate to say Divided We Stand because in division there is diversity and in diversity there is discussion. Never in our nation's history have we needed discussion more than we do today. Today we stand at a crossroads. If we continue with policies that place our personal and national interests over the interests of the disadvantaged of our nation and of the world we will need to continue to be ever vigilant because those disadvantaged will continue to support and protect the anarchists and terrorists. If we are not willing to share our abundance more equitably with the disadvantaged, our children -- and our grandchildren's children -- will continue to work in barricaded buildings and will spend their lives in the shadow of the Twin Towers' shards of steel."

- john tomlinson jct2354@mindsprin , louisville,ky 2/18/02

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"


- molly  lalala , G   2/20/02

"I don't think that this can ever happen to you. If it could you wouldn't be here, you wouldn't have stayed.
( : "


- molly  lalala , G   2/17/02

"The blame could also be put on those who turn a deaf ear and blind eye. Apathy is a crime sometimes too. Don't ever let me get that way...
Hugs to all."


- Fadra  Fadra    2/14/02

"Not only those who commit the crimes are to blame but also those who justify the hate that made them commit the crimes 'cause that's the more momentous crime."


- molly  lalala , G   2/14/02

"As long as people feel inferior, there will always be hate. The need to feel the best, to know the most, to be on top, creates the hate for others. When that doesn't happen, when someone can't be what others think they should be, the hate comes into play, because, "How Dare they think I am wrong!" When people are secure in who they are, they know that others have the right to be who they are.
As with Sept 11th, we watched a fear that took over sensibility. We needed, and I think still need, someone to blame. It can't be as simple for anyone to look toward the sky and blame the terrorists. It has to spread to a sect of people, a certain religion, a stupid man...who has the small feeling and needs the power to control. We blame anyone who resembles a face from the news, we blame a government, we blame lack of religion here, but actually.....no one flew those planes except angry men, fighting for a cause. The cause???? The inability to be unsefish. The lack of having the power to think for themselves.
When we see hate crimes, we blame the terrorists, we blame fear, we blame our upbringing...when actually, no one is to blame but the person who commits such crimes, void of the ability to think for themselves, and want nothing more than a power over someone else. "


- Fadra  Fadra    2/13/02

"A strong proud nation that was humiliated and depressed and in a economic crisis. But then one man who gave them pride again and showed them that there's an enemy that they can fight and that is responsible for all the bad that had happened to them. And the people followed him in pride and honor. And they fought to protect themselves against these evil forces that had hit them. United and proud...
To me as a german student all this sounds too familiar. We learned to see where things beginn to go wrong. You can hardly change anything when a certain point is exceeded but you can fight the beginning. And officially legitimized intolerance is such a beginning. What is officially recognized as good or bad can be considered good or bad by society. "The president said they are evil and as good patriots we're fighting against the evil right here because we want to get rid of it." Doesn't that sound logical (now and then)?
You have to be careful. "


- molly  lalala , G   2/13/02

"Thank you for the article, rain. It's good to see you again. I hope we won't have to wait for long.
Fadra wrote: "But what will happen to the people who don't want to change? Will it be viewed as unacceptable and forced on them??? " I think your article shows us what happens to people who have to fear the they're not considered compatible with american ideals. They try to adapt themselves to the "good way of life". That is what many people in the middle east are afraid of. They don't want to take over that way of life, they want to keep theirs but they're afraid that it might not be accepted. They don't support terrorism but they think "when they are defeated where will it stop? When are we gonna be declared enemy of the good wise west and with what excuse? When will we lose our identity and our way of life?"
All this makes sens. And ignoring it won't help. Even bombs can't kill these ideas, these often valid fears.
If bush was a that great politician who's really interested in peace, he would take up that issue and make a statement...
"


- molly  lalala , G   2/13/02

"Bush mustn't get the Nobel Peace Prize. He ignores international agreements on invironmental care and human rights. He even supports death penalty which is against human rights. He's not fighting the roots of terrorism which are poverty and injustice (also caused by globalisation) but just some of its effects. this man was considered incompetent when he got elected (more or less legally) and he has not change. That fact that the american people want to see him as a strong leader doesn't make him more competent. He called the war against terror a crusade. He did withdraw that later but if he knew just a little about Islam and the mentality of the middle east, he wouldn't have said something that stupid.
This man has not changed. Now he's drowning confusion and fear of the people in nationalism. Just think of Kofi Anan who got it last year. How can Bush get the same prize as such a personality who really deserved and still does deserve to be honored for his work for peace?"


- molly  lalala , G   2/13/02

"from the splc's intelligence report
[while we wait for the w.s. boards to
reopen, free of spammers. . .]:

Raging Against The Other

September’s terrorist strikes
trigger a violent outbreak of
American xenophobia

Four days after hijacked planes tore into the World Trade Center and the Pentagon, shopkeepers were shot to death in California, Texas and Arizona as an anti-Muslim backlash broke out across the country.

"It’s an unbelievable situation," Laila Al-Qatami, a spokeswoman for the American Arab Anti-Discrimination Committee (ADC), told the Chicago Tribune. "The incidents have ranged from hate mail to verbal assaults to crimes that have resulted in deaths. The number of calls we’re getting is unprecedented."

By Oct. 11, one month after the terrorist attacks, the ADC had collected more than
700 reports of hate crimes. The Council on American-Islamic Relations had 785
reports. At hate-crime hotlines set up by the U.S. Commission on Civil Rights, the
volume of calls per hour peaked at 70. In Los Angeles alone, the police and sheriff’s
departments reported 167 hate crimes in the first four weeks of the backlash.

The targets were not limited to people of Middle Eastern descent. Frank Silva
Roque’s alleged drive-by shooting spree in Mesa, Ariz., began with the murder of
Balbir Singh Sodhi, a 49-year-old Sikh, who was hit outside his gas station. Roque
allegedly then shot, but did not kill, a Lebanese-American clerk at another gas station
before opening fire on the home of a family of Afghan descent.

"I’m an American! I’m a damn American all the way!" Roque bellowed as police
handcuffed him and shoved him into a squad car.

Aside from natives of the Middle East, the American Sikh community was the hardest
hit. Before the end of September, a Web site set up for reports of harassment and
hate crimes against Sikhs had received 274 complaints. Indian Americans, Asian
Americans, Latinos and natives of Israel were also finding themselves the targets of
"patriots" like Roque.

"The pattern is similar to the knee-jerk reaction after the Oklahoma City bombing,"
said Marvin Wingfield of the ADC.

Similar, but by all accounts more widespread. The range of hate crimes, from Orlando
to Oregon, was even broader than the range of victims. Hate mail and verbal threats
were reported by the hundreds. Arab Americans and Muslims were shot at, spat on
and physically assaulted in schools, on the streets and in their workplaces. Mosques
and worshippers became the targets of rocks, bullets, arson and — at a Hindu temple
in New Jersey — a Molotov cocktail. In Salt Lake City, a man was arrested for
allegedly setting fire to a Pakistani restaurant. In Palos Heights, Ill., a man used the
blunt end of a machete to attack a Moroccan gas-station attendant.

On Sept. 29, a Yemeni native was shot dead — apparently by a group of four local
teenagers — at his convenience store in Reedley, Calif. Two days before the killing,
Abdo Ali Ahmed had found a death threat note on his car after grocery shopping in
nearby Dinuba. Stan Peterson, who runs a bar next to the store, told The Associated
Press that Ahmed, who had moved to the United States 35 years before, had recently
asked him for some American flags to display. "He wanted people to know he
supported the U.S.A."

Flying American flags, shaving off beards and eschewing traditional Islamic garb —
self-defense measures taken by some — was not enough to quell the violence. Nor
were frequent pleas for tolerance, like the one President George W. Bush delivered
from a Washington mosque.

These ugly episodes are not entirely unexpected," said Yale University Professor
Donald Green, an expert on hate crimes and racial bias. "Like all hate crimes, these
incidents are driven by anxiety, fear, anger and hate."

On right-wing talk radio and on the Internet, those emotions were on full and fiery
display. "We just need to nuke ’em, Rush," one caller told the nation’s top-rated radio
host, Rush Limbaugh. In Griffin, Ga., a police department employee was asked to
resign after circulating the kind of E-mail message that was far from rare: It called for
bombing the Muslim holy city of Mecca, Saudi Arabia, so worshippers would be
forced to pray "at a crater 25 miles across."

With unintended irony, one of the more moderate postings on abcnews.com provided
a glimpse into a newly unfettered form of American xenophobia: "We will always be at
risk as long as we allow scum from other countries to live in our free society."

When the United States and Great Britain began bombing Afghanistan on Oct. 7,
Muslim, Arab-American and Sikh advocacy groups began bracing for more violence
at home. "If there is a prolonged U.S. military action in the Middle East," said Donald
Green, "these events will continue to happen, and may increase in occurrence and
intensity."

Intelligence Report
Winter 2001
Issue # 104
"

Links:
    intelligence report | winter 2001-02

- rain  *.* , u.s.a.   2/13/02

"Is it really true that Bush and Blair are candidates for the Nobel Peace Prize?"


- molly  lalala , G   2/13/02

"I don't know, Fadra. I really don't know."


- molly  lalala , G   2/11/02

"ITS BEEN A WHILE SINCE THE SEMPTEMBER ELEVENTH TRAGEDY, AND THINGS AS I LOOK AT IN THE WORLD HAVE'NT CHANGED. IT'S A CRYING SHAME THAT I'M ONLY 19 AND WITNESSED DISCRIMINATION BECAUSE OF MY RACE AND MY ISLAMIC NAME IN THE LAND THAT IS CLAIMED TO BE FREE! PEOPLE JUST DON'T REALIZE THAT, UNTIL THE UNTIED STATES GETS THEIR BUSINESS STRAIGHT THINGS WILL ALWAYS REMAIN THE SAME. PEOPLE ALSO DON'T REALIZE THAT DUE TO OSAMA'S ATTACK MANY INNOCENT CIVILLIANS HAVE BEEN KILLED IN AFGHANISTAN AS WELL. MY SOUL CRIES FOR A NATION THAT IS AT LOST!"


- YAASMIYN MUHAMMAD  BANANACAKE@ALTAVISTA.COM , MT.PLEASANT, U.S.A.   2/10/02

"It just means that how others lived, could not longer be overlooked. We had to step in and stop ignoring the way others thought, and viewed us. We could not longer let terrorist activities stay passive. We began to fight terrorism is a way that has never been done before, and that is not by leaving blinders on. In that way, we are changing the way lifestyles are, and bringing back some of the Western ways. It is good, and it is bad. The freedom returned to the Afgan women is one of the excellent sides. but what will happen to the people who don't want to change? Will it be viewed as unacceptable and forced on them??? "


- Fadra  Fadra    2/7/02

""...but when Sept 11 came to the US, we found that the conditions others live under, are not acceptable to our lifestyle."
Sorry, I can't understand what that means. Please, explain it again. Thank you, Fadra."


- molly  lalala , G   2/7/02

"Could be, Molly, that human beings are too selfish not to survive. However, in the quest for the immortality they desire for their races, as the divisions go, they will destroy anyone that gets in their way for that. Some of us can live with anyone, and peacefully, because we have a give and take nature. We learn to live without conditions on others....but when Sept 11 came to the US, we found that the conditions others live under, are not acceptable to our lifestyle. However, the terrorists set the thinking that way....where there were no lines, the lines were drawn. War suddenly superceded Peace. "


- Fadra  Fadra    2/6/02

"So we're just too human to be able all to live together in peace (and to wish we were).
One planet meets his friend and asks "You look bad, what's wrong with you?" The other one answers "I'm sick, I got homo sapiens." His friend cheers him up: "Hey, that'll go away soon." ( :
We're digging our own grave killing another and destroying the planet that we live on. I wonder what will finish us off in the end and I hope that it's not gonna happen in my lifetime. Human beings seem to be too primitive to survive. What a depressing idea."


- molly  lalala , G   2/6/02

"War and Peace are hand in hand with each other. Neither one will ever be extinct, no matter what laws are enacted, or whether we have a world justice court or not. People are always going to be greedy for material things, power, control over land and people. They will never be able to decide who is right or wrong in living, because, many times there is no right or wrong. Diversity is also war in many ways, when people can't accept the fact that someone can be different, yet still be right.
Molly, let your mom know that registering for a site, is far safer than not registering. People like Klinger, or Killer (one of the same) will not have access to them as easily. Yes...you can meet some good people here, with truth and insight. Not all on the internet is bad, you so have to sift through garbage sometimes, to get to the good. But you know, as well as I do, there is some good. Look who we have found....and it is good.
"


- Fadra  Fadra    2/5/02

"Uups, it means thanks, not thank, sorry. And I didn't want these smilies to be that ugly.
Hmm. War and Peace, a difficult problem. How about globalisation? It's an issue that causes injustice, fear, aggression, hate and violence. But it ties up with our nothing but human striving for expansion, gain in money and power. It's hard to stop it 'cause that would mean that someone had to renounce profit and money (that he could make) for the benefit of all and that's not too likely.
But it causes fear and that again brings danger. It's the fear to lose one's identity and culture. Somehow diversity must be saved but I got no idea how. There are some things that cannnot be tolerated the most important one is the violation of human rights. Certain laws (Including the one that forbids the violation of human rights) must apply to any nation. For the protection of these law, there has to be a world court whose authority must be recognized by !any! nation. Otherwise it wouldn't have no function at all. Justice that is not availible for everyone can hardly be called justice. For common laws there needs to me some kind of a common system of values....
Peace politics are politics of Justice and Tolerance (two things that human beings are traditionally not too good at). Peace is safe if all parties realize that it is more advantageous for them than anything else and that's what it certainly is. The problem is that we need to think too far ahead to see that advantage for everyone. I'm afraid that the day we all realize that, it could be too late. "


- molly  lalala , G   2/5/02

"Rain, thank for the adress. This site hasn't lost of its charm. It's just as beautiful as I remebered it to be. I hope we won't really have to stay here for six months, this forum is just not the same. It just doesn't feel like home. (: (: (:
Fadra, thank you for contacting JournalE. I wouldn't mind to register, but I'll have to explain to my mom that it's "safe". She got used to the idea that there are people in cyber space that I can trust in without ever having met them. I wouldn't have believed that neither, before I got to know you and rain.
Thanks for everything."


- molly  lalala , G   2/5/02

"thanks fadra --

registration would be
a shame. . . but may
be the only option. . .

oh -- yeah -- here is
the old nick-watch url:

http://soiuser.hyperchat.com/rainnn/revpre5.htm

p e a c e"


- rain  *.* , u.s.a.   2/5/02

"Molly, Rain,
I contacted JournalE..they stopped the spamming (no photos of anyone Rainman), but I watched what was going on, then e-mailed JournalE. It was like before with the vulgar words, over and over and over. So they closed them temporarily for spaming until they can figure out what to do. They may go to registered only...give it a cpl days. Glad to see you both here. All is safe."


- Fadra  Fadra    2/5/02

"molly, fadra --

you know i'll always
be here -- i saw nothing
of whatever went on today.

i assume it was more of the
same inane, repetitive trash.

the board is locked out for now
it seems. . . they did not find
any photos of me, did they?

just curious. . .

as always,

p e a c e"


- rain, out  rainman@workline.com , u.s.a.   2/4/02

"Yeah Molly. I am gonna stay. They still have some things to clean up I see.....It's going to be a tough ride, I think, so hang in there. Hope Rain does too. "


- Fadra  Fadra    2/4/02

"Rain, Fadra, are you gonna stay?"


- molly  lalala , G   2/3/02

"I wish it was, Fadra. Those of good will are one but some just don't get it."


- molly  lalala , G   1/29/02

"The world is better because of people like you Molly, and rainman, and so many others. We are all one. "


- Fadra  Fadra    1/26/02

"The world would be a better place if more people were like you.
God bless you, Fadra."


- molly  lalala , G   1/26/02

"Molly, I love my country, with all it's flaws, and mistakes, and misunderstandings that go with hundreds of thousands of people trying to be one voice. You love your country, just the same, and no...I am never bored with how anyone else lives. I find the different lives and styles facinating, and when it is about someone I care about, like you, it is never boring.
Financial, emotional and war support, never comes without a price tag. When the US steps in, to the cry of help or to our cry to assist, there is always a set of conditions that go with it. We have been considered bullies, yet no one hesitates to ask for help.....knowing what the results will be. We, just like every other country, also use this for financial gain, and control. (Kuwait) Now the controvery in Afganistan is hitting our government. We are being criticized for the detainees, for still being there, for wanting some of the control, in a country that we are now, being considered as "sticking our nose in where it doesn't belong." It's a damned if you do and damned if you don't situation...
Yes. We are no different than most countries. We view our way as the best, and if we didn't, then we shouldn't be here. Our lifestyle is ours. It needs not to be inflicted on anyone else, and we really don't want anyone's on ours. We overstep our bounds sometimes, but are very generous in our attempts to heal too. If that is a pathway to control, and threats are considered our way to intimidate...well. I don't want to go to a position where we just sit and become a country with blinders on, and closed pockets...."


- Fadra  Fadra    1/26/02

"Every single man, woman and child who died fighting against the Apartheid was a hero and was considered a terrorist by "the other side". Some of these people killed white families is monstrous ways. That was not OK. They used fear to make them leave.
A hero is someone who dedicates his life to something that he believes to be more important than himself. He even would die for this and usually does. A terrorist could be considered a hero who does that for the wrong thing like a "revolution agains western imperialism" or whatever you want to call it.
Stopping the Taliban was a good thing and till now we did not end up exploiding them. (but that's gonna happen when they are stong enough to become a new market).
Does using fear and coersion include influenceing other governments threatening them with withdrawing assistence that they depend on? OK, that's not comparable...
The US are not wrong on everything they do, it just would nice if they could be a little less ethnocentric in what they do. My country is just as ethnocentric as yours. Mine wants to get into the Security Council, that's why we're that active. (this was never said officially but it't kind of obvious) I'm too onesided in my criticism, sorry. I just don't want to bore you with things about my country because if I were you (far away) I wouldn't be interested in it."


- molly  lalala , G   1/26/02

"Molly...Sounds like the US is considered to be the wrong in everything they do. YIKES! When the US puts their nose in where it doesn't belong, we are horrible. When we don't put our noses in countries that have been neglected or war torn, we are horrible. Kinda like being between a rock and a hard place, huh?

Terrorists are people who use fear and "terror" for coersion. And I think when we see terrorism, we know exactly what it is and it doesn't need discussion on whether it is rightfully diagnosed. Tell me a case where terrorism is not considered a crime? As for heros? Terrorists are heros how? Only to another terrorist.
"


- Fadra  Fadra    1/25/02

"Being brain-washed is watching the news not asking yourself why does this man say what. We only have the kind of information that are chosen to be heard. We don't hear about thing that we're expected not to care about (wars somewhere in africa that have been going on for so many years). When for the last time did you hear someone talk about the consequences of globalisation which is one of the most important reasons for which there are so many people fighting against the US? When for the last time did you watch someone analyze the system we live in - capitalism? When for the last time did you think about double standards and the lies you have to live with? Being brainwashed is simply accepting information, not questioning everything that you're told or shown, being passive. Letting someone brainwash isn't difficult, it happens the moment you stop finding the truth for yourself. And an incredible number of people everywhere in the world never even got the idea to do that. The brainwashed are not the exception (watch "pearl harbor" - that's brainwashing).
You asked whether terrorism is a crime. What is terrorism? Think about the Guguleta 7. Ahey were called ANC- Terroists too. Terrorists are heros that fight for the wrong thing. But those who "stand at the other side" think it to be a good thing. Who's right? Who has the right to decide who's terrorism is a crime and who's is not? This authority can't and mustn't be the USA. It has to be an international tribunal. But the USA are famous for not giving a shit about international institutions. Making these decisions all by yourself would be really bad for your reputation. And you can't affford that right now. "


- molly  lalala , G   1/25/02

"Tell me something rainman. How do people allow their minds to be twisted like they have been? I am not only refering to the Taliban, but also the other side of the fence, where the white supremists could convince others of twisted points of view. And the cultists, who follow a leader who has nothing but his own way of life as the right way. Where do we go wrong, in allowing the minds to be taken over by cunning brain-washing crazies, who have nothing else except their own selfish motives for things like..terrorism, and lynching....where do people lose sight and become so blind?
And how can we find more possible threats, if we can't question the foot-soldiers of Osama? We desperately need that information. "


- Fadra  Fadra    1/24/02

"fadra --

there has been no allegation
that the foot soldiers we have
taken prisoner inside afganistan
directly participated in any act
of terrorism outside the afgan borders.

they fought for an insane, twisted evil
man. . . very much like hitler's nazi
foot soldiers. we granted all captured
nazis geneva convention status as p.o.w.s,
then, after the war, we tried select leaders
as war criminals in nuremberg. . . that is all
i am suggesting here. we hold the moral high
ground in this conflict, but we risk losing
it, if we DO NOT act like a true statesman at
this critical juncture -- near the end of the
armed conflict in afganistan. . .

these men are like nazi foot soldiers
of more than half a century past.

p e a c e

"


- rain  nah , u.s.a.   1/24/02

"Is terrorism a crime? Because that is what they are considered, terrorists. "


- Fadra  Fadra    1/23/02

"i hear you fadra --

but the question boild down
to this: if the afganis are
not p.o.w.s, then they must
be promptly CHARGED witha crime,
or RELEASED. keeping them in cuba
does NOT prevent them from earning
procedural due process rights under
u.s. law, because they are being held,
or "arrested" by the united states.

so -- if we are NOT ready to charge each individual
one with a crime or crimes, and hold individual hearings
in each case, as to our right to continue to
keep them in custody -- we muct declare them p.o.w.s,
and forefeit our right to question them about future
plots. . .

a difficult choice, but i personally believe we
would not be able to offer adequate individualized
proof of crimes to keep them in custody, if we go
the route of charging them as criminals under u.s.
law -- so, i'd declare them p.o.w.s, and hold them
WITHOUT CHARGES until our war on terrorism is at
an end (i.e., a very long time!), then charge a select
few as war criminals. try them; jail them for life.

but release the foot soldiers to the new afgani coalition
goverment at the end of our war on terrorism.

just a thought.

p e a c e

"


- rain  none , u.s.a.   1/23/02

"The Taliban soldiers, are lacking the respect for life, by their teachings. They would stop at nothing, according to their principles to obtain the higher life in death, that was supposedly achieved by the September 11th attacks. If listed as P.O.w.'s, they can not be questioned about other plots that may take the lives of other human beings. Do we want a repeat of Sept 11th? I don't. And if we can't get information on possible suicide missions or biological attacks? I would like the detainees protected. But not that much. Sometimes, the security of our nation, requires us to be a little strong in our committment to us, instead of fighters of a Holy War. "


- Fadra  Fadra    1/22/02

"a good update on ramsey clark's
efforts appears here, courtesy cnn.com:

http://www.cnn.com/2002/LAW/01/22/detainees.lawsuit/index.html

p e a c e"

Links:
    cnn story

- rainman  rainman@workline.com , u.s.a.   1/22/02

"Execution should be out of the question. They are detainees, I certaily hope the government is not planning on genoicide.....which is what it would be. Humane treatment is being inspected at this time. And with the outcry of the public, I think it would be a wise idea to make sure the detainees are taken care of properly. Why they ever moved them to cuba is beyond me..."


- Fadra  Fadra    1/21/02

"Fadra, I can see your point but I also agree with rain. It would be a bad idea to have them trialed and executed by a military tribunal in cuba where the US laws that would protect some of their rights are not effective. The US has not been caring for the decisions of international courts or international agreements on human right and environmental care for a very long time. the US are presenting themselves as "the good" who fight for justice, freedom and other ideals. Having them trialed and perhaps executed by a military tribunal on a military base in cuba makes it extremly difficult for the rest of the world to take these claims seriously. Even the fact that there is a US military base on cuba is questionable point that doesn't neccessarily "meet with unanimous approval" among those who are now supporting the US. It would be a really bad idea."


- molly  lalala , G   1/20/02

"Thanks Molly. That is the point I am trying to say. The Taliban that are being held in Cuba, were not soldiers for Afganistan. They were soldiers for Osama. To be a POW, you were a soldier for a country. As far as I can see, Osama Bin Laden was not a country. "


- Fadra  Fadra    1/20/02

"Fadra, you wanted to compare them to Hitler and his reign. The captured soldiers are probably comparable to soldiers of the SS. They fought for hitler, not for their country, and so did all soldiers of the third reicht because the army had sworn loyalty to hitler and not the nation itself (this way hitler wanted to keep the army which was from the old regime of the Weimarer Republik from staging a coup.) They fought for him, the dictator, and his ruling party. But they were not considered war criminals. The SS soldiers were kept in camps for years. But not the other soldiers.
I'm not sure whether this example works. "


- molly  lalala , G   1/20/02

"Compare them to Hitler and his reign. His comrades were not considered POW's when they were taken into custody, they were criminals...war criminals. They too, were following a leader who was in control at that time. The Taliban was not the Afgan government, they were the ruling party but only by fear and take-over.
As for the way they are treated, they are handled with the care that any other criminal would be treated. They don't have the rights of representation. They are, exactly who they are....Taliban. The ruling pary, but not the government of afganistan.
Yes they are soldiers. But they were not fighting for their country. They were fighting for Osama Bin Laden. "


- Fadra  Fadra    1/19/02

"I think they are soldiers and should be considered pow's. Soldiers are soldiers no matter what they fight for. Whether their intentions are good or bad depends on the eyes through which they are looked at. Their aims may differ from ours and I'm not going dream up some excuses for the support of the taliban regime. It doesn't matter who supported them how. It's not OK. But they still are to be treated fair."


- molly  lalala , G   1/19/02

"fadra -- not that i really care,
but the taliban WAS the ruling
administration in the nation of
afganistan when we arrived.

wouldn't you expect that if our
national guard troops fought --
ultimately unseuccessfully, an invading
force from china or russia or cnaada, that
they -- our national guard -- would be
declared geneva convention p.o.w.s?

i would.

but like i said at the outset,
i don't really care too much.

we just look less statesman-like,
and bitterly petty about it all, when
we don't just declare the afganis as
p.o.w.s and try and convict them under
the geneva convention.

p e a c e"


- rain, replyin'  none , u.s.a.   1/19/02

"prisoner of war
Date: 1678
: a person captured in war; especially : a member of the armed forces of a nation who is taken by the enemy during combat
Ok. So this doesn't belong here, but it's going to be anyway. If a fighter is to be considered a Prisioner of War, he must be classified as a fighter for a nation, but the taliban prisioners are not fighting for the Afgan nation. They are fighting for Osama Bin Laden
"


- Fadra  Fadra    1/18/02

"I found that article on time.com and added some ideas.
"We choose lawful change and civil disagreement over coercion [?], subversion and chaos," he [bush jr.] said. "In this world, there are good causes and bad causes [nothing inbetween, just thme and us and they are bad because we're always the good], and we may disagree on where that line is drawn. Yet, there is no such thing as a good terrorist. No national aspiration, no remembered wrong can ever justify the deliberate murder of the innocent [at least not as long as it was not us who killed them]. Any government that rejects this principle, trying to pick and choose its terrorist friends, will know the consequences. [but "we choose lawful change and civil disagreement over coercion [?],..."] ["those who are not for us are against us" A.H.]"
By acknowledging that terrorism can be a means (albeit an abbhorent and illegitimate one) of pursuing political ends, President Bush is confronting concerns voiced by some of his coalition partners. Many European and Arab governments have stressed that the threat posed by groups such as al Qaeda can't be successfully eliminated without redressing the political grievances that fuel terrorism. [!!!] British prime minister Tony Blair [who is much more important than "some arab and european governments"] was in Washington on Wednesday to make precisely that point, reportedly warning President Bush that the perception among Arab leaders that Washington has failed to live up to its promise to seriously engage in renewing the Israeli-Palestinian peace process was hurting the prospects of the anti-terror coalition. [why isn't B. Jr. thought to know that himslef?]

Most Arab allies second Washington's disgust for terrorism as a form of political action. [How did they get that idea?(:]But they tend to see many of the groups who practice terrorism as using illegitimate means to pursue goals they consider legitimate, such as ejecting Israel from southern Lebanon (in the case of Hezbollah) or resisting Israel's occup[a]tion of the West Bank and Gaza. That conundrum inevitably creates ambiguity in their response to U.S. demands: Lebanon last week refused Washington's entreaties to freeze Hezbollah's assets. Indeed, the U.S. would be hard-pressed to find Arab governments willing to use the word "terrorist" for Hamas or Islamic Jihad, because many Arab leaders see these groups as responding to what they consider Israel's illegitimate occupation of the West Bank and Gaza. [Hamas was born in a ghetto where many palestinian have to live since their land was occupied] So while they would agree with President Bush's preference for "lawful change," many Arab statesmen also maintain that terrorism is the inevitable consequence of the absence of such change.

Al Qaeda, for its part, appears determined to exploit such philosophical [?!] differences [nice word]. In bin Laden's TV address that coincided with the launch of the U.S. bombing campaign in Afghanistan, the plight of the Palestinians suddenly emerged as the centerpiece of al Qaeda's propaganda effort. And in a nimble preemptive strike on Qatar's al Jazeera TV network on Friday, Bin Laden's Number 2, Ayman al-Zawahiri, insisted that U.S. support for Israel had been the "main engine" behind the September 11 attacks. [creative] He also slammed the Bush administration's decision, announced earlier this week, to deny Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat a meeting with the President during the weekend U.N. session. There is a supreme irony at work here, of course: Al Qaeda regard Arafat as an apostate, and Al Zawahiri would sooner amputate his own hand rather than shake that of the Palestinian leader. No matter, this is a propaganda war [that we're all fighting in the media, not just them] and Bin Laden's men are determined to paint themselves as universal spokesmen for widely held Arab grievances [as others present themselves as the one and only representatives of the "civilized world"].

Bush sought to address those same grievances in his speech to the U.N. "We are working toward the day when two states ó Israel and Palestine ó live peacefully together within secure and recognized borders as called for by the Security Council resolutions," he said. "We will do all [?] in our power to bring both parties back into negotiations. But peace will only come when all have sworn off forever incitement [including propaganda agains "the bad"?], violence [such as throwing bombs at innocents] and terror."

The problem, of course, is making such a peace happen. And just as Washington is looking for action rather than words from partners in its campaign against terror, so are some of those partners looking for action rather than words from the U.S. in pursuit of Israeli-Palestinian peace. (The Israelis, for their part, are determined to avoid being pushed into an uncomfortable peace [ for which they would have to give up the occupation of the West Bank and the suppression of the palestinians who live there.] agreement as a result of international pressure.) Aware of Bin Laden's propaganda game, the White House has resisted any link between the anti-terror war and Mideast peace ó the U.S. and its partners would beat Bin Laden "peace or no peace in the Middle East," Bush insisted earlier this week. Perhaps. But one of Blair's messages earlier this week was that greater American involvement on this particular front would certainly make the larger task at hand a lot easier.

What do you think about this article?"


- molly  lalala , G   1/17/02

"Molly and Fadra,

This is a choice between right and wrong.

This is a choice between individual freedom and liberty for all, regardless of ethnicity or religous affiliation, and tyrannical rule by the majority ethnicity and religion.

That you, yourself, would identify this line of demarcation between cultures indicates that you are aware of that difference of opinion evidenced by the cultures in question.

Educate yourself, contrast the life of the average man and woman in the streets in different parts of the world. Look at the forms of government in different parts of the world.
Take the bigger view. View which society 'tolerates' difference of opinion and culture withing its borders, and which does not. With that view, by that view, with our life choices, all free people choose where they would live. This is the essence of the issue. Are you free to choose, or are you not? And I speak to the world population. That choice, or lack thereof, is the line of demarcation.

All freedom loving people should choose that everyone in this world also has the opportunity to choose for themselves their individual destiny. We all have the right to choose our individual destiny.

Some people in this world believe that they have the right, no, the obligation, to forcefully take away everyone's freedom to choose for themselves. With force, not with pursuasion. When Saddam Huissein gassed thousands of Kurdish men, women, and children within the borders of Iraq because he found them to be a political irritant, he showed us all the stuff he is made of. Imagine if the leader of the USA chose to gas troublesome tribes of African Americans, or Arabic Americans, or Italian Americans, or Brazilian Americans, or Mexican Americans... where then, would the pundits protecting the cultural rights of the seats of trans-global terrorism align themselves?

As I have said before, my friends, the time to choose has come. It has come for all of us. We must choose which side we believe in, which side we would live with. Tyranny and terrorism, or freedom and liberty.

It is that simple."

- Howard  hbristow@texas.net , San Antonio, Texas, USA   9/21/01

"'Howard...dear dear Howard. Go to the link again, I think it has been fixed. Also, while you are searching, got to http://www.angelfire.com/blues/magoo/Sept11.html There are many good sites there...read the one from the Afgan-American. Then think. If you would read your posts, again, you would see that you were asking people to chose between Western and Eastern Civilisation. Then depicting the one to be right because they provided freedoms that the others did not. That is not possible to chose. The choices you asked for were who was right and who was wrong...in your opinion. That is the way I understood it, and if it was misunderstood, then it was presented to be misunderstood. And we do that with even tempers and not name calling. We don't demand that each other agree, we do give the respect that our lives are different, but that doesn't make them in error. The e-mail addy? It's my choice to keep that private so I don't get e-mail from loonies. There have been a few in the past, but before your time. So...Howard...dear. Back off. This is a discussion board, and if we chose to mix life with history, that's a great choice. The world has been hit with a disaster that we can't begin to comprehend. We will deal with it the way we chose, you deal with it the way you chose. Period. Want to go back to topic? The lynchings, were as cruel as the bombings. They were without trial or judge. They were a harm to humanity, and discrace to a group of people that believed in playing God. The end did not justify the means.' - Fadra 9/19/01